18. Ordinance annexing territory to the corporate limits located at 401-421 Birch Creek Road – 145.502 acres. (Council District: nearest District 1) (roll call vote)
Looks like Roy Carroll is going to sail this one through without any questions from the local media on just how did they pick his land for this project. Was there any other properties in Guilford County involved in this deal to land the project which was code named "Project Doublewide" .or was he and Richard Beard the only ones involved with this transaction.
Justin Catanoso from the Triad Business Journal had this as a title "AMEX may have offset tax break for land costs CLICKHERE . Here is a few quotes from post
Sources familiar with the negotiations say American Express pressed for reductions in per-acre costs before agreeing in principle (the deal hasn’t closed yet) to acquire about 100 acres in both Rock Creek Center and the new Birch Creek Corporate Park in unincorporated Guilford County
Richard Beard, a principal with Simpson Schulman & Beard, the brokers for Rock Creek, declines to detail the discussions that took place between his group and the agents representing American Express, which were led by Greg Wilson of the local C.B. Richard Ellis office. While Wilson declined to comment, Beard did say: “We had to make concessions toward the end of the negotiations.”
The code name played on the fact that not one, but two suitable sites were essential to seal the deal.
“Each location was very dependent on the other,” Beard says. “It was both sites or nothing. All negotiations were separate, but any time I saw Roy around town in the past few weeks, I’d ask him how things were going.”
Roy Carroll, one of Greensboro’s top developers and president of The Carroll Cos., declines to discuss the negotiations with American Express regarding the land it will buy in Birch Creek Corporate Park. As the location for the redundant data storage capacity, it is likely that construction on the estimated 150,000-square-foot backup facility won’t start for two years or more.
Can't wait to hear the cheerleaders at the Greensboro City Council meeting on 8-17-2010 talk about this project and not one of them will ask the question on why did they pick these properties from the most connected crony capilalist we have ever seen in Roy Carroll along with another member in Richard Beard who is a war memorial coliseum commission member and also the head cheerleader for coliseum director Matt Brown.
Below is the REPOST from April 21, 2010 and with one of the biggest comments periods we have ever had on Triadwatch.
________________________________________________________________________________
One of the biggest tax incentives deals ever proposed in Guilford County and Greensboro is American Express potential data center in the eastern part of the county.
It appears that Mr. Dan Lynch, Greensboro Economic Development Alliance President, who should have been involved in showing sites to AMEX, and Roy Carroll, owner of one of the properties, have shared the title of "Board Member" at the Greensboro Partnership.
Let's give a brief definition of Crony Capitalism:
What Does Crony Capitalism Mean?
A description of capitalist society as being based on the close relationships between businessmen and the state. Instead of success being determined by a free market and the rule of law, the success of a business is dependent on the favoritism that is shown to it by the ruling government in the form of tax breaks, government grants and other incentives.From Investopedia CLICKHERE
This definition fits local developer Roy Carroll to a T.
Here is what is being reported from the Greensboro News & Record CLICKHERE
"The American Express project would involve two buildings on two parcels in eastern Guilford: about 100 acres in Rock Creek Center and part of a 700-acre tract owned by developer Roy Carroll near Knox Road and Birch Creek Road.
The Carroll property would be annexed into Greensboro, allowing the city to share in the incentive offering and benefit from the promised boost to the tax base."
As we have stated in the past that local developer Roy Carroll had his own political action committee giving thousands of dollars to the campaigns of plenty of local politicians in Greensboro and Guilford County. Pay to play at it's best.
Here is a list from a few years ago of Greensboro City Council members and the closed out account of Roy Carroll's Political Action Committee called North Carolinians for Leadership in Government.
RECEIPTS
10/17/2007
ROY E CARROLL II
PRESIDENT/OWNER OLD SOUTH HOME COMPANY
3619 CAMDEN FALLS CIRCLE
GREENSBORO, NC 27410
Individual Contribution
Check
$4000.00
10/17/2007
VANESSA Y CARROLL
HOUSEWIFE HOUSEWIFE
3619 CAMDEN FALLS CIRCLE
GREENSBORO, NC 27410
Individual Contribution
Check
$4000.00
Total ALL Receipts:
$8,000.00
Expenditures
10/16/2007
DIANE BELLAMY-SMALL
GREENSBORO, NC
CONTRIBUTION
Check
$1000.00
10/16/2007
ROBBIE PERKINS
GREENSBORO, NC
CONTRIBUTION
Check
$1000.00
10/16/2007
SANDRA ANDERSON GROAT
GREENSBORO, NC
CONTRIBUTION
Check
$1000.00
10/16/2007
TRUDY WADE
GREENSBORO, NC
CONTRIBUTION
Check
$1000.00
10/16/2007
YVONNE JOHNSON
GREENSBORO, NC
CONTRIBUTIONS
Check
$1000.00
10/16/2007
ZACK MATHENY
GREENSBORO, NC
CONTRIBUTION
Check
$1000.00
Total ALL Expenditures:
$6,000.00
We also have a few Guilford County Commissioners who have received PAC money from local developer Roy Carroll as well in the past in
Paul Gibson (D) 5-2-08 for $1,000
Kirk Perkins (D) 5-6-08 for $1,000
There are many red flags that need to be attached to any deal involving Roy Carroll. The first would be in who will be his real estate broker on this deal because we have had many people in the past talk about the ethical issues of local politicians like Guilford County Chairman Skip Alston with a downtown hotel project and him being the broker on that deal. Now we know that sitting Greensboro City Council member and also local developer Robbie Perkins works hand in hand with Roy Carroll. This relationship is so tight that during a council meeting in 2009 we had Robbie Perkins text messaging Roy Carroll in China on a issue where the city and Roy Carroll's company were going to court with another developer Marty Kotis over properties off of Horse Pen Creek Road and Robbie Perkins told Roy Carroll from council chambers that he needs to fight this, here is that report CLICKHERE.
We can also raise some red flags to see that why did they pick these sights and was there any possibility for any other properties on the table?
If the News and Record is correct then are they going to use both properties or are they looking at both properties and then choosing just one site?
We also know from the past that local developer Roy Carroll has the use of a private plane CLICKHERE . Was any local public officials flown to any meetings with executives from American Express on this incentive package and presentation on this plane?
We will see what happens on this tax incentive hand out to American Express for corporate welfare, but a true conservative would vote NO to this deal.
Let's also see just how much influence local developer Roy Carroll has on this deal being a part of his property so that he can reap the riches of water and sewer and road improvements to all of his properties near knox road and birch creek road.
Let's hope more people will want to know all the facts of every aspect of this whole incentive package and ask the right questions to all involved.
146 comments:
I guess Roy already has the votes to get the Water, Sewer stuff done to double his money on the rest of his properties in the area.
Mr. Roy E. Carroll III
The Carroll Companies
Robbie Perkins 10/13/09 $250 Roy
Robbie Perkins 10/19/09 $100 Vanessa Y. Carroll
Jim Kee 10/27/09 $100 Vanessa Y. Carroll
Jim Kee 10/27/09 $250 Roy
Jim Kee 10/27/09 $100 Alvin Leonard, Carroll Companies
Zack Matheny 10/23/09
$100 Alvin Leonard, Carroll Companies
Zack Matheny 10/23/09 $250 Roy
Zack Matheny 10/23/09 $100 Vanessa Y. Carroll
"It turns out that many of the key people who set policy for the Greensboro Partnership also happen to have major real estate interests in town-- or interests in real estate development. These are not, for the most part, small businessmen who deliver a typical product or service. Nor are they local captains of industry for the most part. Instead, they tend to be people who are "connected", and who support Melderec con Simkins-style candidates with their contributions."
Joe Guarino
"Greensboro Partnership recieves money from Greensboro Taxpayers.
From thier web site: "The Governmental Affairs department advocates for these initiatives through direct staff lobbying and by engaging every member of the Greensboro Partnership and its affiliates as advocates. Governmental Affairs staff members are registered lobbyists with the State in compliance with Ethics law."
Greensboro Partnership then uses taxpayer money to lobby for more taxpayer money.
And members of Greensboro Partnership purchase political candidates to rake in even more taxpayer money.
So the Partnership and our elected leaders have a closed door meeting, not open to the public or press...
Sounds optimal for the crony few at the expense of the many who end up with the bills.
This is not capitalistic democracy.
This is fascism."
Whom, from http://guarino.typepad.com/guarino/2010/03/melderec-forces-challenged-by-conservative-council-at-greensboro-partnership-meeting.html
How can some politicians explain to their kids, that they, as elected leaders, voted to borrow and spend someone else’s (taxpayer) money to benefit those who contributed to their parent's political campaigns?
The number $400,000,000 keeps getting thrown around like that's what the tax value is going to be.
Can the County and City tax AMEX on the property and what's in it, or just the property?
Seems like the actual eventual tax benefits may be a lot less than what they are implying.
How long will it take to get our money back?
Also looks like Roy has plenty of new housing developments in the immediate vicinity to sell to the new employees.
I can imagine a little Pow Wow with the AMEX folkes with Roy explaining how to milk the locals.
There was a Yes article about Roy's Road - is this the same area? Maybe if this deal happens he can finally afford to finish the road and emergency vehicles can get to those houses.
Spag on Roy and Linda
"In 2006, our current County Commissioner Linda Shaw voted to give developer Roy Carroll nearly $1,000,000 in tax subsidies to build an expensive high rise condominium project in downtown Greensboro. Mr. Carroll kept the top two floors of the building as a penthouse residence for himself, valued at nearly $2,000,000.
Did he REALLY need your tax dollars for his project?
…YOU paid for Roy Carroll's luxury penthouse. It's too bad you don't ever get to spend the night there and enjoy the view unless you're friends with Mr. Carroll."
Why is it that almost every time we have a great opportunity, all we can do is bicker and pick at nothing relevant.
American Express calling the Piedmont home would be another feather in our cap. We've been neighbors for years anyway!! And I know that some really deserving folks would like to have a reason to set their alarm clocks again.
Jobs, growth, progress. Are we really going to stand in the way of what we need the most.
I agree with Reality Talk. Get off the negative bandwagon and let's act like adults and professionals and do our best not to screw this great opportunity up!!
RealityCheck and Straight Talking nailed it on the head. What is Keith Brown doing for Greensboro? Let's see...not paying taxes, whining like a school girl, contributing zero solutions, shoveling smoke to create conspiracies that my golden retriever could debunk....I could go on forever. Perhaps Carol's land was selected because its already part of an industrial park and it's the only 700 acre tract available there....Duh...
For God sakes, you make me sick, Keith (Guarino and all the other loony conspiracists too). Crony Capitalism? You've lost it. What the hell is wrong with favoritism? You too dumb to realize that the essence of free market is favoritism. Everyone is free to chose what product or what service they like best, or in this case, what land is best. Those who are best at what they do, get the most business. The best businesses are good for the city they are in because they bring in loads of tax dollars, jobs and resources. Thus, when a city is trying to bring in dollars and jobs to create a more attractive city, they turn to the cities best for help. Why? Because people like Carroll have a track record of success and truly care about making Greensboro a better place. Why are you always opposed to great progress?
"Why are you always opposed to great progress?"
Is great progress living in a world where the well connected reap the rewards by purchasing the politicians?
This is what is wrong with America.
You must own Goldman Sach's stock.
"Perhaps Carol's land was selected because its already part of an industrial park and it's the only 700 acre tract available there....Duh..."
Perhaps it wasn't.
If a businessman goes around buying people to line his own pockets with other people's tax money, and no one says anything, everyone just keeps their traps shut because they don't want to upset the "pious," this might as well be Russia.
"If there is going to be list of Mr. Carroll's contributions, let's be fair and list every single person who has given or contributed to any city or county official in any way."
I totally agree. Let's get all the contributions into a publicly available database so everyone can see where the money is flowing.
"isn't the real issue about hoping that American Express decides to build its new database center here instead of Iowa?"
Is no one interested in the details?
What if it ends up a Dell?
Why not use the same money for small business tax breaks for companies hiring new employees?
Why isn't the real issue about the misappropriation of taxpayer dollars?
As Roy sits atop his Taxpayer paid for Penthouse.
Where are the Americans?
Let's Kiss Google's ass!!!!!
Let's Kiss Google's ass!!!!!
I like "Reality Check's" name.
Classic George Orwell Doublethink.
I wonder if He/She knew of the irony when the name was picked.
Same kind of historical revisionism as 1984.
With thinking like Reality Check's, we are all going to end up as share croppers looking up at the man on the hill who owns the pay day loan advance store.
Everyone remember to be a moron, and everything will be alright. Trust those in power. Be submissive to those with the nice cars and houses.
Be a slave and shut your pie hole.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand why this has turned into a discussion of corruptness? What is corrupt about this? Nothing, just Keith and pals making something out of nothing. This deal is worth over a billion bucks to Greensboro and the 7 million in taxpayer money will be tripled back. ???? This incentive is a bond incentive that is going to be paid back fools. Further, the incentive is restricted to economic development, meaning it must be used for infrastructure development that will spur new business growth and tax revenue for the city (i.e. can't give tax credits). If we don't use the incentives we loose them! Idiots in the room should leave.
So if I support my city council with a contribution, and the city council buys coffee from my coffee shop, does that make me corrupt?
As far as everyone moaning about Roy at the top of his penthouse, did everyone forget that he removed a 17 year vacant, blighted building from our downtown when plenty other developers couldn't afford to do it EVEN WITH THE INCENTIVES. Anyone who does that deserves to live atop it. Furthermore, shut up and go apply for the incentives yourselves, they are open to anyone. No evidence anywhere that anyone is "buying" politicians...Can you not contribute to a politician you like? The real focus is not on the contributions, but the amount of dollars that this development will bring to our city.
Nothing wrong with texting your politicians either!
"If a businessman goes around buying people to line his own pockets with other people's tax money, and no one says anything, everyone just keeps their traps shut because they don't want to upset the "pious," this might as well be Russia."
---Spare me. Go live in Russia, then. We won't miss you. And, no one's lining pockets with tax dollars. The tax dollars are building roads for you to drive on and for people to get to their jobs. The requirement for these incentives is that the development can't go ahead without the use of the incentives. 7 million can easily make a project unfeasible. But regardless as its been pointed out to all the 3rd graders, 7 million will be paid back 100 fold by increase in tax base.
"Everyone remember to be a moron..."
---Spoken like a true moron. You haven't the slightest clue about how municipal economic works.
What is your solution here? Tell AMEX to go somewhere else? Alot of bitching and no solutions or proposals. I bet you all think that the government flew the planes into the world trade centers too. We need to reward businesses that are going to create LONG TERM prosperity for our city.
Haaaa. I love this blog--Not for Keith's child like journalism (well that's entertaining too), but for the commentators. It never fails, people get fed up with the conspiracists and leave intelligent, common sense remarks and the conspiracists come back with the most irrelevant yet predictable remarks. Newsflash--money talks--People with alot of money who use it in a beneficial way have alot of influence. To guy from Russia, forget Russia, you should join the Omish? Matter of fact, all you backwards people, go live in Omish country. That sounds like that would be your utopian society.
What the hell is wrong with lobbying? Good way to get your interest heard. I'd much rather donate money then have to join a god awful political organization like the tea party or whatever org Keith belongs to.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Wow...Are you a doctor anon? You should be. Great diagnosis.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
thanks for all the comments . It has been entertaining to hear the trebic trolls come out of hiding.
Kelly what is wrong with the Tea Party?
"People with alot of money who use it in a beneficial way have alot of influence"
That is our lively pay to play attitude that is serving ex Democrat North Carolina governor Mike Easley real well. Can anyone say jailtime next to his partner in crime Democrat Jim Black.
" This deal is worth over a billion bucks to Greensboro and the 7 million in taxpayer money will be tripled back. ???? "
Alex where did you get this load of numbers?
""If there is going to be list of Mr. Carroll's contributions, let's be fair and list every single person who has given or contributed to any city or county official in any way.""
As another commentor has said it would be a great tool to have a database of all contributors locally in Guilford County but will take a lot of man hours. Some say talk with a local college to see if they would partner to get this done. It is done on a national level but would like to bring it to the local level.
Let's guess who made all these comments and who feels so strongly about the topic - maybe Roy Carroll. Keith do an analysis of the IP addresses from this post and I'll bet the majority of them came from a little building called Centerpointe. Every time government is criticized for doling out dollars, this same commenter comes out - Hi Roy! Glad to see you still have that wicked teenage sense of humor. Gosh you're so cool and funny! GO ROY CARROLL! GO ROY! YOU'RE THE MAN ROY! YOU ARE SOOOOO FUNNY! SWEET DIG MAN! YOU THE MAN! NOT!
Hi Roy. How's it going today? How's the penthouse? Feeling frustrated, feel like blogging? I know man, it sucks when people call you on getting those millions in taxpayer dollars, right? They should just mind their own business.
A lot of those questioning these deals are trying to watch out for thier tax bills and their kids.
Should we assume all those in favor of the corporate blackmail are also in favor of the Nussbaum Center funding?
If anyone hasn't noticed, the County is burning through cash, taxpayer cash, to fund next years budget.
We have no cushion for mistakes, but so many are praying to God of Pay to Play, which hasn't exactly worked out so great for the little people paying the bills.
What are the actual numbers?
Who and how many properties were shown to AMEX?
Who get's stuck with the bill if the deal ends up going bad?
Either way Roy wins if he gets taxpayer funded infrastructure for his privately owned property.
Let's not be uninformed when our money is on the line, which will probably have to be borrowed, which will eventually cost twice as much as they are saying.
What is a trebic troll? Whatever you call them, they make good points and the only response they get is anti government ranting. I am all for the American Express deal and the city needs to do everything it can. I also think that there are some seriously childish people who dont have basic understanding of creating incentives for attracting businesses and keeping businesses in our city. It's just a shame that you have senseless people the cry corruption when they haven't the slightest evidence of it. If that makes me a troll, so be it. I'd rather be a troll than a 'retard'.
"This incentive is a bond incentive that is going to be paid back fools."
Like Dell's?
Everyone keeps saying that Roy is making money more money off these incentive deals...any proof? Does anyone know how much a development like the amex one would costs and whether or not it could be done without incentives?
Kelly said...
"What the hell is wrong with lobbying? Good way to get your interest heard."
Like Wall Street?
Like the defense industry?
Like the Drug and Healthcare industries?
Yes, like Dell. Dell pays property taxes and the property values from the adjacent properties significantly increased as a result of the development....so yes, like dell.
Lobbying by conglomerates for taxpayer money, other people's money, is how our country got into the mess we are in now.
Haaa. Roy doesn't care about us bloggers. He's too busy raking in cash, laughing his ass off at us idiots. If I spent half the time doing business that i do blogging, then I'd have a penthouse too.
"there are some seriously childish people who dont have basic understanding of creating incentives for attracting businesses and keeping businesses in our city."
Maybe the problem with those against is that they do understand.
FYI. Roy just owns the land. Sense when does owning land become such a crime. No solution because there is no problem and not one good argument against this deal can be made. COME TO GSO AMEX!
Robbie-
You're fired unless you get me that money!
Roy
"the only response they get is anti government ranting."
Maybe it's time for some anti-government ranting.
Maybe it's time for the few reaping all the benefits to realize they are taking from the many.
Maybe it's time for some to learn some scrouples.
Keith, do you have a job? Cause if you don't, maybe Roy can hire you or Amex. It seems like their businesses are doing good and maybe could use some extra help. Oh wait, you hate businesses and economic growth. Well, perhaps Roy needs a slave?
jeff their lies the problem, was any other property in the whole county of Guilford ever brought to the plate for this incentive deal for American Express?
We all know in this incentive deal procedures in that we only find out after the fact.
david , Marlene Sanford has already tapped me for head cheerleader of TREBIC
Hi Marlene, hope all is well.
"Keith, do you have a job? Cause if you don't, maybe Roy can hire you or Amex. It seems like their businesses are doing good and maybe could use some extra help."
Why did Roy lay off 5 of his top people recently? Does he need some government assistance? Who has Roy fired in the past month? Is Roy strapped for cash?
"Everyone keeps saying that Roy is making money more money off these incentive deals...any proof?"
Let's not assume this is a rhetorical question.
This looks like a transfer of wealth from Guilford and Greensboro taxpayers to Roy's pocket.
few reaping all the benefits? THIS DEAL IS GOING TO CREATE JOBS AND A LARGER TAX BASE! Takes money to make money. AMEX won't come if they don't get the damn money so we can all be better off. Why is this so hard for the 'trebic trolls" or whoever they are to understand this??? Carrol has nothing to do with the deal except he owns the land. That news story said he tried to give away that land to Dell to get them to come to greensboro! So, its not like he's out to make a killing on this. Why does everyone just automatically think he's got some underhanded deal going on. He's not getting the incentives, amex is!!!! We all are!!!
here's the quote "In 2004, Carroll offered to donate 100 acres of the eastern Guilford tract for the incentive package that Greensboro put together to recruit Dell, ..."
Again with the conspiracies...lack of proof doesn't mean corruption. Keith should be exiled to North Korea
Look at Triadwatch's other posts. Look at the number of comments. Who has a reason to comment on this post? Who has? Why does this post have 48 posts so far when other posts have 0? Hello Roy, nice to meet you.
It's not like there's a line formed to purchase Center Point condos.
He must be losing big on a lot of empty units, on top of what he got stuck with in eastern Guilford when the market turned.
But it's a much nicer looking empty building than it was before.
I will tell my kids how they are paying for it when they pay sales tax at the grocery store.
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Sarah J. said...
"few reaping all the benefits? THIS DEAL IS GOING TO CREATE JOBS AND A LARGER TAX BASE!"
assumption.
"Takes money to make money."
Than use your own.
"AMEX won't come if they don't get the damn money so we can all be better off."
Assumption. Some more than others, or some and others with less because they have to pay for it.
"That news story said he tried to give away that land to Dell to get them to come to greensboro!"
Why isn't he donating this one?
"So, its not like he's out to make a killing on this.
?
"Why does everyone just automatically think he's got some underhanded deal going on."
Past precidence.
"He's not getting the incentives, amex is!!!! We all are!!!"
Not quite the case if you think about it Sarah. I know my taxes will have to rise because we don't have the money to pay for it.
Roy would definately recieve taxpayer incentive dollars via infrastructure improvements and money from AMEX.
Sarah J.:
Is Carroll donating the land now? How much is he being paid for his land? How much is the city agreeing to pay for water/sewer extensions? What if Amex doesn't go there - does he get millions in free water/sewer? How much is Perkins being paid by Carroll each year? Why does Perkins refuse to let the taxpayers know how much Carroll pays him? Is Perkins or his company involved in this deal?
Mark Butler
"Part-Time Real Estate Government Affairs:"
Looks like no healthcare benefits.
Of course the incentives are conditioned on the deal going through. do you really think the city would just hand over millions for not project? read people read. I for one, would love to see who is posting, but internet is such a wonderful thing. Anonymity is great! keith has got to be a really giant douche bag to write this crap.
Hi Brittany!
Brittany you rule!
It's only $13,000,000.
If an average teacher makes $50,000, just fire 260 teachers.
Wait, 260 - 150 is -110 jobs.
but think of the tax revenues....
All this from a county that is going to spend $34,000,000 more than it takes in this year.
Now that's leadership.
"David Gergene said...
Keith, do you have a job? Cause if you don't, maybe Roy can hire you or Amex. It seems like their businesses are doing good and maybe could use some extra help. Oh wait, you hate businesses and economic growth. Well, perhaps Roy needs a slave?"
Slaves are what taxpayers become when they are forced to fork over thier dollars at the behest of their bought and paid for elected officials to private interests.
Brittany, how can we help?
i don't hide my comments as anon, mine are under triadwatch. Like the last time the trebic trolls thought i was david wharton and the real david wharton was the one who commented
"keith has got to be a really giant douche bag to write this crap."
Keith has more intestinal fortitude than all the pontificating anons.
First Amendment Anon. Keith is looking out for my kids. Keith is looking out for my purse.
If Ben Franklin didn't in the 1770's, we'd be an English colony.
If Edward Murrow didn't, we'd all be communists.
If Fox, CBS, NBC, ABC and CNN did, we might not have gotten lied into a trillion dollar war.
If CNBC did, we might not be such a financial basket case of a country.
Reality Check:
Roy Carroll wouldn't be a problem if he didn't have a habit of purchasing local politicians and asking for taxpayer handouts.
He is knee deep in profiting from local politics.
Therefore, he actions are suspect.
"Stop whining and being so judgmental and let's all count our blessings."
Sounds like a good way to get reamed.
Downtown Hotel anyone?
New jobs, well I guess we should all put on blinders and ignore any back room dealings and dirty politics. If he didn't have his hand out like a beggar on the street, no one would be commenting. Does he need the money? I thought we had a no panhandling regulation in Greensboro. Has Carroll signed up for a license?
Seems like you are against incentives in general. This should be a discussion on Amex, not Roy
"slaves are what taxpayers become"... Good one. Government cost. Move out of America to a country where you don't pay taxes that promote growth...oh wait, no country exists...
The post is about Crony Capitalism, not Amex. If we managed to cut out all the Crony Capitalism, Pet Projects, Pay to Play, Pork, etc. we'd save our government billions. Who has the financial incentive to post 73 comments? I doubt Amex reps are on here posting all night. Who else could it be....
Planes and success = Corruption! I got it Keith! Thanks for making it all clear to me! Roy didn't have to put up his land for the deal, he could have made a private african safari for himself. But he didn't. He decided to work with the city and promote greeensboro in hopes that Amex will take the bait. Now lets bash him for it. You all are completely backwards.
"we'd save our government billions"? But we wouldn't have jobs and no CONTINUAL CASH FLOW. Guess the gov could just pay us to sit on our asses and eat cheetos until the billions are spent up. But then, we wouldn't have jobs to pay taxes to the gov so the gov wouldn't have any money either...
Is Triadwatch really Michael Moore?
Its better to use tax dollars for economic development because we see actually see a return! This is a great use of our money. I'm happy to give mine to Amex. Best use of tax dollars since Center Point
Haaaaa! "Man with small thing between legs". That should win an award or something.
How much is Carroll getting paid for his land? How much do the city incentives increase the value of his land? What city councilmembers contribute to Carroll's success? What jobs is Carroll creating? Is Carroll eating cheetos in his penthouse watching Michael Moore videos?
The Carroll supporters posting the sexual references appear to be tweens with complex issues.
"Kenny G. said...
Its better to use tax dollars for economic development because we see actually see a return! This is a great use of our money. I'm happy to give mine to Amex. Best use of tax dollars since Center Point"
This is sarcasm, right?
If not, I think if those who want to pay more in taxes to pay for incentives they know no details of should pay the taxes for those who want to opt out.
"Planes and success = Corruption!"
buying politicians and having a record of profiting through duplicity with government appears to be corrupt.
How much of his success is directly correlated to political bribes?
What success - the guy is broke. Can't afford to put gas in his plane.
terribly entertaining all who have participated.
Interesting thing about the internet for those who may feel as though they are on the defensive, the more activity on the post creates more attention from the aggregators.
So theoretically, by making the thread so long, more attention has been brought to the site by defending any given subject, which some may not have wanted anyone to see in the first place, considering thier positions.
Pay your subs on your downtown project if you are so successful.
If we didn't give away millions to get jobs, we wouldn't have jobs to repay those millions. Sounds like a net sum of zero. Who wins, the same people that are posting on this blog. Roy and his cronies.
I live in an America where the best succeed.
Solution: Why don't we just convert to a communist society!
"Pay your subs"....Interesting comment. Does he not pay subs?
Bernie Madoff succeeded for a while, then he got caught.
Communism deals with the exploitation of workers, rather this is a case of the exploitation of taxpayers. It is more akin to the taxation struggles in the UK and Americas. The American society abhors political corruption, that is the foundation on which our society is based. Solution - learn about your own country.
Theodore M.
This is laughable.
What other developers are involved in this deal? What real estate brokers are involved and getting paid. We need real transparency in government. How much are the players making on these deals? Before any incentives should be given we need to know who makes money on the deal.
Which city councilmember's district is this?
No true Communism has nothing to do with exploitation of workers. Read some Marx, my friend. Communism is about the equal distribution of resources and no class division. Communism today, however, is not true communism. Rather, its totalitarianism. You all want no favoritism, no rich people and no influence. Capitalism rewards those who produce more. Politicians reward citizens who bring more prosperity to their city by listening and adopting their ideas more so than joe schmo. You call that fraud, whereas, I call that democracy. When Bill Gates talks about computers, people listen. When John McCain speaks about computers noone listens. When Roy speaks to politicians about smart growth and bringing business in, they listen. When Keith speaks about smart growth and business, people laugh.
American Express definitely needs to come to Greensboro if it can create jobs. We need more jobs. Why don't we give the money directly to American Express, then who cares what they do with it. Why are we providing it do developers? This location seems like a long way from Greensboro proper, is there a way we can get jobs closer to town?
Hey Keith, you should design a business plan and submit it for incentives. Any business can apply. Yes, anyone--rich or poor.
Greensboro Local Incentives
The Greensboro City Council and the Guilford County Board of Commissioners are committed to the long-range economic well-being of our citizens by welcoming new businesses to the community and encouraging the growth of existing business.
Local incentives are based upon job creation, capital investment and employee wages. Projects in the City’s Urban Progress Zone areas are eligible for increased incentives.
GEDA staff facilitates requests for incentives and training. If your company is interested in exploring eligibility for incentives, please contact:
Kathi Dubel, Vice President
New Business Development & Expansion Services
336-387-8313
kdubel@greensboro.org
From what I understand American Express is requiring a developed site before deciding. That's why Dell didn't end up coming to GSO. So you have to get the infrastructure there first, so the city wants to help
Funny ha ha, or funny queer?
Capitalism has nothing to do with government "rewards" or favors. You bastardize the concept.
Under some versions of 'capitalism' the government also carries out a number of economic functions. For instance, it issues money, supervises public utilities and enforces private contracts. Laws, such as policy competition, protect against competition and prohibit unfair business practices.
Unfair business practices are the topic of this thread. Capitalism abhors government intervention and favoritism.
Theodore M.
"The proposal of any new law or regulation
which comes from [businessmen]
ought always to be listened to with great precaution
and ought never to be adopted
till after having been long and carefully examined
not only with the most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention.
"It comes from an order of men
whose interest is never exactly the same with that of the public
who have generally an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public
and who accordingly have, upon many occasions
both deceived and oppressed it."
Adam Smith
"A democracy will continue to exist
up until the time that voters discover
that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury
From that moment on
the majority always votes for the candidates
who promise the most benefits…
with the result that every democracy
will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy…
…nations always progressed through the following sequence
From bondage to spiritual faith
from spiritual faith to great courage
from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance
from abundance to complacency
from complacency to apathy
from apathy to dependence
from dependence back into bondage
Unknown"
"The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe
if the people tolerate the growth of private power
to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself
That, in essence, is fascism
ownership of government by an individual
by a group or by any other controlling power
Franklin Delano Roosevelt"
"When buying and selling are controlled by legislation
the first thing to be bought and sold are legislators"
P J O'Rourke
You should check the commerce clause of the US Constitution as well as the spending and taxing clauses, buddy. Government can spend and regulate any channels of interstate commerce. On a state level, the govs have the power to regulate the general welfare of the citizens. This includes zoning, and economic development. Thus, governments can spend to create incentives to accomplish their goal of regulating commerce or the general welfare. 5th grade civics.
Should legislators accept campaign contributions
from those seeking taxpayer money?
"Little by little, business is enlarged with easy money
With the exhaustless reservoir
of the Government of the United States furnishing easy money
the sales increase, the businesses enlarge, more new enterprises are started
the spirit of optimism pervades the community
Everyone is making money, everyone is growing rich
It goes up and up…until finally someone whose judgment was bad
someone whose capacity for business was small, breaks
and as he falls he hits the next brick in the row, and then another
… and down comes the whole structure
That is what happened to greater or less degree
before the panic of 1837, of 1857, of 1873, of 1893 and of 1907"
Elihu Root
US Senator, Nobel Laureate
Take a look at Delaware...Created all sorts of incentives and tax breaks for corporations. Now, delaware is the corporation capital of the world, with more corps organized there than anywhere. And its citizens ENJOY NO STATE TAX BECAUSE ALL THE REVENUE GENERATED BY THE CORPS!!!!! Took years to get that way and millions of taxpayer dollars, but when a delaware citizen orders from the dollar menu, it cost a dollar. AGAIN, DO YOUR HOMEWORK
Hey anon, quit posting all your stupid quotes. Speak from your heart, not someone elses.
"Ponzi finance units must increase its outstanding debt
in order to meet its financial obligations
A transition occurs over the course of an expansion
as increasingly risky positions are validated by the booming economy
that renders the built in margins of error superfluous
encouraging adoption of riskier positions
Eventually, either financing costs rise
or income comes in below expectations
leading to defaults on payment commitments"
Hyman Minsky
Delaware is a great example. I used to live there and I miss not paying taxes...And my cushy corporate job. The only fortune 500 co we have here is VF...But not if AMEX comes!!!!
Governments are particularly susceptible to accusations of cronyism, as they spend public money. Many democratic governments are encouraged to practice administrative transparency in accounting and contracting, however, there often is no clear delineation of when an appointment to government office is "cronyism".
Given crony capitalism's nature, these dishonest business practices are frequently (yet not exclusively) found in societies with ineffective legal systems. Resultantly, there is an impetus upon the legislative branch of a government to ensure enforcement of the legal code capable of addressing and redressing private party manipulation of the economy by the involved businessmen and their government cronies.
The economic and social costs of cronyism are paid by society. Those costs are in the form of reduced business opportunity for the majority of the population, reduced competition in the market place, inflated consumer goods prices, decreased economic performance, inefficient business investment cycles, reduced motivation in affected organizations, and the diminution of economically productive activity. A practical cost of cronyism manifests in the poor workmanship of public and private community projects. Cronyism is self-perpetuating; cronyism then begets a culture of cronyism. This can only be apprehended by a comprehensive, effective, and enforced legal code, with empowered government agencies which can effect prosecutions in the courts.
Capitalism and government rewards are the essence of how we function as a government. How do you think government contracts work? Gov picks favorite (i.e. best bidder with best experience) to carry out jobs that govs can't do-such as build roads or construct industrial parks, or anything else besides intragovernment tasks. Governments reward green businesses by dropping taxes all the time.... Governments give tax breaks to certain farmers. Government rewards good contractors and architects contracts to build government builders. Need more?
Alice, you paid taxes in Delaware, just not the same way as here.
AMEX is already here.
We are not talking about moving their headquarters.
Transparency is there. See the application for the incentive. Money will go to building the infrastructure--roads, water, sewer and electric. Anything not spent is given back, then the gov sets the amort schedule for the payback. 2 years. then from 2 years on the gov is getting a stream of tax revenue that it didn't have before and people have jobs.
Anon, I did not pay a cent of sales tax. NOT ONE CENT
"Capitalism and government rewards are the essence of how we function as a government."
I don't think that is what the founders had in mind.
The government is not supposed to be in the business of constructing industrial parks, or giving tax breaks to "certain" farmers etc...
I can see regulating business, but other than that, the gov should stay out of it. Government involvement in industry has never not led to massive corruption.
Delaware does not collect consumer taxes and the highest income bracket is 5.5%. I paid 2% on my income, but was able to write most of it off thanks to wonderful public/private relationships and a business friendly (and successful) government.
"When Roy speaks to politicians about smart growth and bringing business in, they listen. When Keith speaks about smart growth and business, people laugh"
go ask roy and his trebic trolls how the protest petition for greensboro went , did they defeat the bill?
Gov isn't in the business of contructing business parks...they are in the business of promoting and fostering economic growth and success. Really? Are we having this conversation?
"Alice Wonders said...
Anon, I did not pay a cent of sales tax. NOT ONE CENT"
OK, so how did you pay your taxes?
Property taxes perhaps?
Do you think Delaware does it with magic?
"Alice Wonders said...
...thanks to wonderful public/private relationships and a business friendly (and successful) government."
what's in your cool aid there alice?
We are talking about economic incentives to bring businesses in, not protest petitions.
Is there any residual property that benefits from the roads, water, sewer, etc. Who owns land around the Amex site? Let me guess - Roy Carroll?
"Kenny G. said...
Transparency is there. See the application for the incentive."
where is the application for the incentive?
How do we protest this? Is there a petition we can sign?
Where is the application for the incentives? What transparency? Where are the documents? Please post a link.
Anon: Go look it up yourself: www.delaware.gov
I paid property taxes, but I actually pay more here in greensboro. They are able to have no consumer taxes because the gov generates most income from corporate taxation. I used to work for an auditing company in Delaware. Delaware was able to fund more for the public than you would believe.
Delaware charges no income tax on corporations not operating within the state. Delaware's lax corporate laws are important because the United States has an important corporate law doctrine called the "internal affairs doctrine." Pursuant to this rule, corporations which act in more than one state are subject only to the laws of their state of incorporation with regard to the regulation of the internal affairs of the corporation.
As a result, Delaware corporations are subject almost exclusively to Delaware law - even when they do business in many (or even all fifty) states. Without this rule, national corporations would be subject to the varying (and potentially inconsistent) laws of each state. Under this rule, the states have an incentive to have the most relaxed corporate laws to encourage corporate formation (because this results in increased revenues and fees for the state). The reason Delaware is the home of most U.S. corporations[citation needed] is because it has made itself the most attractive in this respect. Whether this was a "race to the bottom" or a "race to the top" - that is, whether this incentive created positive or negative externalities - is a matter of vigorous debate in the academic literature.
Got to thinking some more about this. Has Mr. Carroll created a new business model where you assist in the recruitment of corporations to look at property you've stockpiled, apply to gov't for incentives to make your property look more attractive and then sell to make your profit? Fascinating, and it can be made to sound like you are doing the community a favor by having them invest. Not unlike the downtown hotel projects where everyone cashes out up front and the taxpayers are left holding the bag. Mr. Yow is even making sense but he hasn't tapped into the notion that some folks are profiteering through these gov't incentives.
You had to be at the council meeting on tuesday. They went over the request. The asked to infrastructure. It was okayed by the GCC first.
Seems like there has got to be some empty buildings around here that already have the required infrastructure. These government incentive packages need to stop. This practice should be outlawed. Government is getting way too big and getting involved in way too much and this is one area they should have no business being involved.
I'd like to hear more about why some vacant lots in far eastern Guilford County are more feasible than an infill location in Greensboro where we already have the infrastructure. Instead of spending dollars on new infrastructure, the City and County could instead use those dollars to retrofit an existing location. Our economic development incentives continue to be in direct contradiction to the goals stated in Connections 2025.
Lot's of businesses and developers target properties that may be eligible for incentives depending on the companies that operate on them. Nothing wrong with that! No secret there! See google! No conspiracies idiots, just smart business. your property can be incented too. why the conspiracy theories? Go to us.gov and read all the incentives available....there is tens of thousands available to all sorts of businesses and municipalities and individuals. NO SECRET.
I don't think yall understand what's really going on here. The county isn't handing a check over to Amex. That's not the incentive. The county helps finance the deal similar to banks, but at a lower rate because they use tax dollars to lower it. Then after the business gets going, the tax dollars are paid back and the gov gets new taxes on the property and business as well income taxes from all the new workers. This is one of the conerstones of american progess and has been going on for decades now. Come on folks.
Amex picked that spot out because Amex is the shaker, not the city. The city has to listen to the company...Amex can go wherever they want. Its up to us and the city to make gso as attractive as possible.
Not really sure why this conversation involves Carol. I mean we cant knock on him for having the land that Amex wants. Maybe he was the best marketer. But whatever the case, Amex chose that spot. Isn't that the area where the ATT building park is? I'm sure that that was a big reason why Amex liked it. But who cares. Carol probably owns more land than anyone in greensboro so the chances are good that it wouldve been his land anyway. Further, Carol pays more taxes than probably anyone in Greensboro, so he's making his contribution back to the city even without projects like the one downtown. Why all the hate? no one can point to anything WRONG carol has done. all those text--nothing wrong with them, supporting politicians that help business growth, including his-nothing wrong with that (wouldn't you support people that support what you do?)
I don't understand you wikipedia post...that concerns corporate tax, not sales/consumer tax nor income tax. We Delaware folks pay no taxes on items we buy and have ridiculously low income taxes all thanks to corporations and big business. LOVE IT. Also, small business is helped by the big business too in form of lowered pass through taxation for private companies and private corporations. Encouraging business through incentives is a great tool that we need to use more of.
Vie de la Communism!
What the hell do our taxes do for us now? I'm all for giving it up to Amex if we can get some jobs here and a nice business park.
Isn't this out near Burlington on the highway? How will a company going out there bring jobs to Greensboro? Are they only going to hire people from Greensboro? They should get the money from the state not us. Our elected officials have to cut teachers jobs, but then they do this?
Umm... I think we have water, sewer and roads already available in the city.
Why can't AMEX locate where we already have these things?
The money should be used for job training for residents of Greensboro. Have them locate in Greensboro, where they cna hire Greensboro residents, and give them incentives for every greensboro resident they employ.
The incentives shouldn't be going to real estate people.
There needs to be more transparency in government. We are seeing issues at the state and local level on a regular basis.
Elected officials need to provide full disclosure about their business relationships, sources of income, properties held, etc.
What is the proposed tax value of the Amex property? How is that value calculated? How many square feet of building, how much land?
Let's see if the values are realistic. If buildings and land cost on average $50-100 per square foot and this is supposed to $400 million - are they building 4 million square feet of space? That's four times the size of the mall. I think these projections are crap.
What if the property tax value comes in at 4 million - are we paying 100 times more in incentives than we should.
SHOW ME THE MATH, NOT THE BS! Who is buying this $400 million of property tax value increase - WAKE UP GREENSBORO! THIS IS FIELD OF DREAMS ACCOUNTING!
"Amex can hire who they want, but I'm sure they aren't planning on hiring people that have to commute very far--common sense."
That's the point! This is on the edge of the city and more likely to benefit people outside the city. This is 20 minutes east of downtown! It's also only 20 minutes from downtown Burlington.
Why aren't they coughing up cash!
Do Greensboro city buses run all the way out to Knox Road?
"we get new 1 billion dollar tax base and jobs!"
All there is, are two buildings that will be worth far less than $400 million.
The stuff inside the building is what makes it worth at least $300 million, which they will be depreciating off thier taxes.
The point of the post doesn't seem to be about the efficacy of the project, but how some of Greensboro's well connected elite, who seem to have a knack for being picked for lucrative taxpayer financed projects, seem to always end up at the front of the line.
The other point is how these same people tend to give contributions of 5,000% or more than the average joe, to multiples of elected officials.
So defenders of the status quo, how do you respond to these two issues?
"When the public "invests" in these improvements it is the developers that still receive the return"
Bada Bing
the news and record has a article out on 5-21-2010 about how american express will come to town but won't take any incentive money.
SEE I TOLD YOU SO , have fun TREBIC TROLLS with this one
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